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Reason Before Belief VS Belief Before Reason

October 17, 2009

The following discourse is the reply to a PM I received on my youtube channel and also the consequent commentary I was inspired to write, as I thought about the response to this rather bizarre criticism. Apparently I had commented on a video somewhere (I don’t recall which one at this point) and it seems, as my correspondent has indicated by quoting me, that there must have been a rather prolific amount of what I will dub ‘belief spouting’.

It is a particular bug bare of mine you see, to hear a rabble of redneck yahoos, mindlessly blurting out what they BELIEVE. Often the most inane and ridiculous extravagance is taken for license, to whimsically speculate on the most far fetched ideas with the longest odds being wielded as effortlessly as matters of undeniable certainty. While little thought if any, is given to rhyme or reason amongst them. In such a place nobody calls for any justifications. Anything is allowed, from far fetched absurd speculation, to completely ridiculous impossible absurdity. nothing below a particular line of implausibility is allowed though. If you try to interject with some sober facts that are established beyond any reasonable doubt, in these nonsensical non-think-fests, you risk being booed down and scorned out of existence. So it makes a nice little challenge, to think of a way to drop rationality into the mix and have it handled with some degree of respect before it is seen for what it is and kicked to the curb.

For that purpose, sometimes it helps to use a little irony and satire to feign the level of sincerity and adopt the same protocols as the natives. Like pontius pilot might say, ‘when in Woame do as the Woamans do’. So it seems, I had delivered a kind of copycat ‘believe n run’ to this crowd, with a little sarcastic twist of ironic rationality. Seems I had delivered my opening line as a completely unqualified belief, but one that immediately endorsed rationality and as such, it might undermine the need to have or portend any beliefs, as if they were important in and of themselves. Perhaps it also contradicted those who would pontificate about wild unsupported speculations and put a cruel knee into the most irrational or absurd conjectures. But then that was the point. I too can state my opinion, and for what it’s worth, it should be worth little if it isn’t the product of reason and critical thinking. You should think so, I should think so, as should anybody else think so.

Here is The personal message quoting my original comment, itself quoted within the Reply I had been working on. Towards the end I decided to blog this instead and just send my correspondent here. At that point it seems, I have changed perspective and begin to address my readers. I thought I should mention this, to allay any confusion and because it’s just so much easier than going through and editing the whole damn thing. I have been up a long time now, I’m sure you will understand. I have simply inserted a note to delineate the change in perspective. From there I return to you dear reader, but for now let’s see what I have put in reply to my critical correspondent:

Sorry It has been so long since I have found the time to write this reply. I don’t know where you have taken this quote from and your PM provided no link. Therefore I cant work out the context, but I dare say I was being flippant in the first line, with a barrage of others who I suspect may have been contending their beliefs without the slightest care that they should have some motive or desire to account for those beliefs.

~~~ Skepticus Said:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe in attempting to understand the truth, whatever that may be. Evidence is more important that belief though. Belief is not a valid method of knowing, but a by product of reason, at least it should be. Religious people always talk about ‘belief’ and ask about ‘belief’ as if it had any importance. As if believing something made it true.

~~~My Correspondent Responded:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
interesting the connection and contradiction between your
first and last sentence:
i believe in ……… if believing something made it true.
then what makes true what you believe in?????


Sorry, but there’s NO contradiction there. I may just as well state my belief as may anybody. In NO WAY does what I have stated as my belief reflect a contradiction with my long upheld principle that BELIEFS SHOULD BE HELD FOR REASONS, and believing things doesn’t make them true. Put even more succinctly I uphold a personal maxim of ‘Reason before belief, not belief before reason’ On the contrary BECAUSE a belief established rationally about any particular fact is inert and inconsequential (the very principle I am advocating above) The belief I have stated above “…in attempting to understand the truth, whateverthat may be” is no exception even more it is entirely consistent with the principal it endorses.

ironically you seem to be reacting as if I am not entitled to have an opinion (or beliefs), precisely because I have stated my decree, that facts do not follow from beliefs. Apparently then, the only people entitled to have an opinion, are those who fabricate their beliefs with disregard to rational protocols such as accepting that beliefs should follow from reasons which follow from facts, rather than the other way around. Should one construct a logical rationale then, to show how they arrive at a belief (personal conclusion) by establishing rational priorities while seeking accord with stringent protocols of reason, then somehow they are not entitled to hold such belief as are manifest by this means and their claims for justifying that belief, may be proclaimed a contradiction. Ergo – we mustn’t believe anything logical.

Glibly stating ones belief and making no mention for any kind of rationale, is a failure to present the THINKING PROCESS that should precede a conclusion. Nobody should be interested in just what you or I BELIEVE, but rather how we came to those beliefs (which are after all nothing more or less than our personal conclusions) and what justifications we used to arrive at those conclusions.

My statement “I believe in attempting to understand the truth” is a statement of personal ideology. It is an example of a suitable way to use the phrase ‘I believe’. As it is a statement of personal ideology, it obviously doesn’t precede from a specific chain of cause and effect relationships, nevertheless the rationale should be obvious enough. At least is should be obvious to those who accept their existence within an objective reality and understand that the factual nature of reality, is independent of personal belief. That may not be as obvious to some, as I once assumed it was.

In the statement “I believe the sun is hotter than the moon” the phrase ‘I believe’ acts as a qualifier for the statement ‘the sun is hotter than the moon’, subordinating it to a personal conviction. That conviction is my conclusion about a tangible fact of reality. Notice the phrase ‘the sun is hotter than the moon’ is a matter of fact, it must either be objectively true or false. I am entitled to speculate but If I do so, it would be useful if I qualify that speculation with my rationale. THAT is the point I was trying to make with the original comment. Why should anybody care that I think the moon is hotter than the sun? The important question is Why (for what reasons) do I think this, for that is the real information that should be examined if we wish to know if the conclusion (belief) is justified with rational precedent.

In a world where assertions of fact are true or false for their own reasons ‘not because of anything somebody believes’, glibly stating an opinion about a matter of fact, as if it were true because you say so, is the height of absurdity and arrogance. We need to have the humility to know our place in the universe and realize that what makes something of a factual nature true or false is something beyond our capacity to influence by exclaiming beliefs. What is so hard to comprehend about the self evident proposition that ‘BELIEVING SOMETHING DOESN’T MAKE IT TRUE’?

A child of 10 should understand this well, and not require any further clarification. The objectivity of the external world is self evident and it trucks no contention with the subjectivity of our personal convictions such that they may be granted the status of an opinion. Only fools attempt to supplant well established and understood matters of fact, for their own unencumbered opinion. When they do so, it comes as no surprise that they can offer no workings out or reasoning to show the objective rationality of their clueless opinion. These may have once been the children who stubbornly refused to grasp the concept of colouring within the lines, wrecking every other child’s colouring book in the deal. They are also very likely to be the ones, who had the hardest time drawing a distinction between the toilet and their pants.

I did not state ‘I believe in attempting to understand the truth’, BECAUSE I think that believing it makes it true. In the English language, the phrase ‘attempting to understand the truth’ is not even a  statement of a factual nature. It is an aspiration, an intention or a goal, but not a statement of fact. The aspiration itself is ABOUT fact or ‘truth’, but it is not a statement OF truth because it doesn’t resolve to the conditions true or false. It is actually a personal value, objective, intention or goal. It is ASPIRATIONAL. It is that which I ASPIRE TO. I might have stated it as ‘I believe it is a noble objective to understand the truth’, and that IS a statement of fact (ie it does resolve to true or false), but in this case the fact in question is incontestable because what IS or ISN’T ‘noble’ is not itself an objective matter of fact. Instead it is only my OPINION that ‘understanding the truth is a noble objective’.

Nobody could object to my making the statement as I am just as entitled to my opinion as anybody else. Even if I AM only chiming in with my opinion to be sarcastic, nevertheless, the actual opinion that I proffer is EVEN STILL, one that is hard to disagree with on a purely rational basis. So my belief about virtue and intellectual integrity, is whimsical in practice (as I am being sarcastic) but rational in principal (as it makes an appeal to subordinate opinion to reason). The fact that this might be expressed as an opinion based belief (although, actually, it happens to be expressed as a maxim or ideological principal), makes it nothing like a contradiction. The conclusion is still a rational one. A rational conclusion is still rational at the heart, even if it may be expressed whimsically as an opinion based belief. The opinion itself and the rational conclusion confer agreement with each other. They both advocate holding reason OVER belief [NB: Not instead of belief].

What you seem to have missed, is my tongue in cheek demonstration of glibly stating an opinion (which in existing company at the time, may have been all anybody cared to do), yet nevertheless demonstrating the humility of subordinating beliefs to the strictures of rational inquiry, by advocating the ‘attempt to understand the truth’. In other words, if you can believe anything you want on a whim, then one might just as well (or even better) choose to be prudent and stick with rational inquiry and demanding there be reasons for any conclusion. The corollary was quite clearly, fully intended to trump the antecedent proposition, artistically couched as it was, in the language of an aspirational belief. [EDIT: At the time of writing the addendum, new information had been discovered and I have added this comment since:  It was deliberately ironic BECAUSE I was asked to express my belief and BECAUSE I find this constant rambling  on about beliefs so damned annoying. But it WAS NOT a contradiction.]

Instead of understanding this you seem to have pounced on my having the temerity to exclaim a position of belief, as an opportunity to accuse me of a contradiction and implicate me in a treacherous conspiracy of one, to commit some heinous hypocrisy. [facepalm]  Good grief! There had to be one didn’t there?  As if simply having a belief, qualifies for the very same criticism I presented. I did not state that one must ‘NEVER HAVE ANY BELIEFS’, did I? What I did say was “Belief is not a valid method of knowing, but a by product [that should have been ‘byproduct’] of reason, at least it should be.”

Belief should be a byproduct of the process of reason. How obvious is it, that ANYBODY should want to have reasons for whatever it is they believe? This is just so profoundly self evident, that it beggars belief, I should even find myself compelled to explain it, because I suspect I am being criticized for honoring this golden axiom of the highest (but most obvious) intellectual integrity. Astounding! Bizarre! That does not prevent me from having a belief, in fact it necessitates my belief. That is, because reasons lead inevitably to facts. I will be compelled to believe (just as inevitably) the plausible facts which reason leads me to discovering. Where reason compels, belief is necessary.

But the belief is the bath water and reason is the baby. If you want to think and have understandings, you should therefore want to intimately know reasons not beliefs. Beliefs don’t tell you anything. A deranged lunatic can proffer beliefs and they can be the product of equally deranged reason, wild guesses or no reason whatsoever. Unless you can examine the reasoning behind the beliefs, you have no idea of the intelligence and sanity of the belief other than your own independent speculation on the same subject.

This remark however, takes the cake:

“then what makes true what you believe in?????”

That is sillier than simple words can describe. Firstly a word on style. Sentences in the English language always start with a capital letter and only one question mark is required to terminate and punctuate a sentence as a question. You should see if you can trade in four of those question marks, for a couple of capital letters. Next; I can hardly describe how poorly structured this question is, whatever the intended meaning actually happens to have been.

Nothing “makes true” what I believe. Nor does any specific thing, make what I believe true; especially not after the fact. My whole point has been, as it was in the first place, that things are true (or false, or green, or 3.14159…, or 124.8 PSI, or 72 KG, or saturated, or compressed or magnified 3X or whatever status, condition or value they hold, in relation to any measurement or statement about them), for their own individual reasons, which are quite apart from our opinion based beliefs.

Let’s call this the end of my reply to my critic: What follows is addressed to you dear reader:

What kind of stupid question expects a preconceived singular cause for the truthfulness, of the multiple plethora of facts which I may hold as beliefs? The preconception that there has to be a singular cause, gives this question the smell of religious mentality (i.e. one true god as the cause of all things), but then that suspicion was already on the cards. The stench of religion was attested to, in the motive for somebody to even criticize an affirmation of rationality, while missing the obvious sarcasm and also botching up logic so badly in the criticism.

The noted lack of literacy and atrocious language usage skills are another hallmark of an illiterate, redneck, religious ignoramus. As with the vile stench of anti-intellectual self-righteousness. But to ask this astoundingly stupid question, preloaded with singular causality, and expecting me to state THE reason which makes EVERYTHING I believe true, that is a real smoking gun. I won’t say I am certain, but I am hedging my bets strongly, in the direction of a religious critic having foisted this remarkably stupid, illiterate question and It’s attending criticism.

No matter how you look at this question it is asked in complete ignorance of the actual point being made by my original comments, that things actually have their own reasons for being what they are, independent of our beliefs. Indeed each fact that may be regarded as true (or whatever), is entitled to have its own reasons for existing in this condition. The moon has craters, because it gets hit by asteroids. My car is yellow, because the pigments in the paint tend to reflect light in the wavelengths 570–580 nm while absorbing the others, and so on.

Can you imagine how many lifetimes it would take to answer this question, if it were taken at face value? Given the number of things I believe and the myriad of reasons I have for individual believing each one. My Jug just boiled. I believe this, because I know the sound of boiling water and the click it makes when it cuts off automatically. I am even more strongly convinced, because I know I am the one, who set it to boil in the first place. I know an old friend came to visit last week, because I answered the door and he came in and we chatted for about an hour. The sun will appear above the eastern horizon tomorrow, because the rotation of the earth… you get the idea?

The crowning glory of this question though, the shining jewel of stupidity that makes it’s owner the mayor of Idiotsville, is the deliciously perverse way, it completely inverts causality itself. The very idea that something is expected to “make(s) true what” I “believe in”, as if believing in something is an act I can whimsically choose, and then I can provide an after the fact catalyst to act upon my belief that ‘makes it true’.

This is a powerful delusion at the heart of the follower of any Abrahamic faith. You can believe things and that will make them true. All god seems to want, with all his petulant, capricious heart and soul, is to be believed in. Not world peace, abolition of hunger or even the most beautiful sonata, but for people to believe he exists. According to his worshipers and their church leaders, he will send you to hell for not believing. It is the only unforgivable sin.

Sound’s like emotional black mail to me considering the eternal pain and suffering factor. What? Just because I didn’t believe an absurdly implausible fairytale? Sounds much much more like the kind of story greedy con merchants would fabricate to coerce you to try and pretend you believe their fairytale. Still if you never learn to reason properly and you have your curiosity leached out of you, then you are a dry sponge hanging over a sloshing tub of delusions. The more they splash on you, the heavier laden you become and the harder it is to cling to the tenuous thread of rationality above. You may eventually give up and drop into the tub and become saturated.

Let me say this again Nothing “makes true” what I believe. Nor does anything, make what I believe true. Beliefs are not IN ANY WAY causally related to facts. The chain of cause and effect is impervious to the influence of beliefs in all but the tiniest fraction, that involve our own self motivation. The mundane and trivial scope of influence I have in this universe aside, only leaves everything outside of my scope to influence. The color of grass, the name of the next person who walks past my house and how much sugar you have in your coffee (if any), (get it?) For all intents and purposes and infinite plethora of possible facts that I (and you) have no control over.

For all of these things, including how the universe works in broad principle… No!… make that ESPECIALLY how the universe works in broad principle, these things are NOT subject to our whimsical choice of what we wish to believe. In fact if we have our head screwed on properly, we don’t have any choice about what to believe at all. NO! none! Beliefs should be the products of reason, by which I simply mean there should be reasons for what we believe the things we do, they should be logical reasons and they should also be outside of our control for anything but actions within it.

Critical thinking is not always easy, and excision of our wishful thinking can be thought of as an imposition on our freedom. You are free to believe anything you want (morally) but that is hardly a liberty if you wish to only believe that which is actually true. When you understand there is an objective world outside your mind, in which certain facts and measurements exist and when you choose to know the truth about it, with the bounds of possible accuracy, then you have to voluntarily relinquish, wishful thinking. That means if X is not true, you do not wish to believe that X is true. You then need to accept there are some tools that work towards finding out if X is or isn’t true, while there are others which do not work. Thinking that beliefs have any place in discovery of what the facts of reality are, is a HUGE ERROR. You can’t believe some thing to make it true. You have to believe it IF it is true, or disbelieve it IF it is false. Otherwise you have to estimate the probability.

In any case, beliefs (personal conclusions or perhaps plausibility estimates as the case may be) are on the end of the chain. They are inert byproducts They are estimates or conclusions about what actually IS or ISN’T factually true. They don’t do anything to the fact (or fallacy) they represent, they are just conclusions about it. A belief has nothing more to do with a fact, than waving a flag has to do with patriotism. Just as trees swaying do not cause the wind to blow, having beliefs doesn’t give people reasons to hold facts. Facts give people reason to hold beliefs. You have to make some attempt to know what the facts are, that process is what we call reasoning.

That is at least what I attempt to make my beliefs represent. If you choose instead to use a definition of the word ‘belief’ which includes the ability to exercise ‘freewill’ upon beliefs in the manner suggested by religious faith, then you have chosen a definition (misappropriated or equivocated) which corresponds to what in my nomenclature, is known as a delusion. You are not free to choose what to believe, as Judeo-Christianity suggests, if in fact, what you wish to believe, is whatever just happens to be true in the factual sense. Think about it, you cant make any choice by which the outcome of something outside of your control (such as if there is or isn’t a god), would be altered. In measuring external facts you are just like an instrument. A rain gauge can not DECIDE how much rain has fallen. It must passively measure the results of facts external (and indifferent) to its existence.

If religious people wish to dispute this point, they could at least have the nerve to confront it head on. I for one would LOVE to know how their whimsical choice to exercise freewill in choosing their BELIEF, is going to have any effect on anything other than how well (more like poorly) their choice accords with plain ordinary FACTS. That is to say, they should let us know how the belief influences the fact, if that is indeed what they expect to be able to do. As far as I can see the only thing you can do by altering beliefs, is change how well they fit with reality. That is a worthwhile exercise, if you enthusiastically embrace reasoning and realize the beliefs you hold have discrepancies with the facts of reality. This process of investigating reality and adjusting ones beliefs is often called LEARNING.

But that is not how the religious mind works and choosing beliefs is not an exercise in critical investigation of reality. The arbitrary choice of religion is lauded as a personal, moral choice. Moreover, it is also a choice deliberately intended to take dogmatic authority over critical thinking and reason. Religious people are conveniently silent on this, and wherever possible attempt to have their cake and eat it too. While peddling a belief system that will ultimately demand you to take your critical thinking and throw it on the scrap heap, it pretends as far as possible to convince the wary skeptic that it somehow still makes rational sense and true believers, will bend over backwards to accommodate critical discourse, as long as they think they can cheat, lie equivocate and generally ‘bear false witness’ on behalf of their sky-daddy. The whole field of theology is one big pretense to be doing some intellectual ruminating of a presumably rational nature. At least that is the pretense of it, but faith is not to be trifled with, and logic, critical thinking and reason, had better not try rising above faith, but…

Wait a minute. This all started with BELIEF. Nothing but pure unadulterated belief. And it stepped off the rational bandwagon precisely where logic and critical thinking was replaced by faith and dogma. Prior to this we had been talking about how beliefs were inert, and followed passively after the facts which we learned from reality. How then did we get divorced from rationality and critical thinking? This, is a question religion needs to answer for. The only reason is the one in full view. Making belief an active willful choice and raising BELIEF above REASON. To make matters worse the Christian dogma in particular, is encumbered with this hideous burden of guilt/shame for vicarious sin and the failure to ‘BELIEVE’ is punishable by eternal suffering. So believing IS UNQUESTIONABLY, something you are expected to do by means of ‘personal choice’ in a manner entirely divorced from reason or any logical method of apportioning conviction according to the plausibility of the belief or claim being presented.

So therein lies my criticism of the whole bat-shit crazy idea. How in the fuck is choosing a so called ‘BELIEF’ this way, supposed to meet any agreement with reality? The stupidity is obvious. The blackmail is obvious, and you could say that believing this (or anything for that matter) for beliefs own sake, beggars belief, but actually it canonizes belief; belief without reason. DOGMA! Of course the expression ‘beggars belief’ is a reference to the impoverished status imposed upon ‘belief’, usually in consideration of a particular absurd conclusion. So in another sense, dogma as a general principle, beggars belief far more effectively than anything could hope to. What is more important though, where dogma is concerned, is the BEGGARED impoverishment of REASON. Belief can take care of itself, reasoning needs to be looked after and nurtured. A belief will be whatever it must after the reasoning is done. Really what is happening is this: First of all dogma beggars reason and then religion canonizes the beggared, buggered, bastardized and butchered, belief that it brandishes as a result. It’s actually such belief which beggars reason, rather than the reason which beggars belief, if you see what I mean.

Returning to that absurd question for a moment. I considered taking it at face value and constructing a tongue in cheek reply to somehow ironically point out the absurdity, but as I played word games with it, I realized that there is an answer, a very good and very straight answer. Of course we do have to deconstruct the question, hammer the dents out of it and put it back together in some semblance of grammatical order. To that end, I chose to interpret the question as “What makes what I believe true?”.

I asked myself if there is one idea or concept that runs the whole gamut of nature (even reality itself), which encompasses all things as if to “make them true”? Then it struck me; that is precisely what causality is. All cause and effect relationships are entwined by the singular concept of causal connections. There is no need for a single cause of all causes as the primitive minds of the ancients assumed, but all causes need to be locked into a network of causally connected relationships, in which each element is logically possible, consistent with every other element of the network and consistent with the whole. Together, the logically and mutually consistent relationships of the interdependent elements of this network, adhere to the deeper principles of NECESSITY. Perhaps anything which isn’t impossible must be compulsory, but surely anything that is true, is logically possible and also necessary, otherwise it would be a-causal.

In any case the universal, general effects of logical necessity and causality, taken together are a more than adequate answer to the question “What makes what I believe true?” The question may have been intended as a more specific rhetorical device while assuming the properties of prejudice within an ill fitting, tiny, parochial, epistemological flawed, flat earth worldview of a young earth creationist, but I got to milk a little inspiration out of it FTW, and Well… damn it all, if that didn’t make me feel so much better.

Peace Love & Mung Beans Baby.



Having completed this article (all but the spell check), I decided It would be OK to go and sneak a peek at whether my speculation had been correct, that my correspondent was actually an ignorant godbotherer as I had suspected. It should come as no surprise for the reasons I have already put forward, that my suspicion was correct. Good guess? Hardly! But what I did receive as an added surprise, was the discovery of where the critic’s quoted text had come from. There it was, my comment exactly as quoted, right on the godbotherer’s own comments list. I didn’t even think of that, but I should have. Why? Because my reason for making the comment has been sitting on my own comments page all along I regularly notice it, but it has little meaning out of context. The matching comment on my own list, was from my correspondent who had dropped in to ask “then what do you believe in?” This question itself, would quite likely have been in response to something I had said on a video comment section somewhere, but that’s not important now.

Now we have an explicit, direct reason for why I had ventured into the domain of proffering what it is that I believe. The prefect reason in fact, as I had indeed been directly and explicitly ASKED what I believe in. Not just ‘what are my beliefs’ you note; but what do I believe IN. Explicitly asked as it happens in the statement of personal ideology mode I mentioned earlier. Well what a surprise then that I dare to express my beliefs as such and with precisely the attitude one should expect considering the beliefs I actually do hold and the question that was asked. Scrap the speculations I made of tongue in cheek, sarcastic predilections. No such imprimatur is required, to explain my temporary inclination to express my preference for rational thinking under the euphemistic guise of aspirational belief. It hardly needs to be tongue in cheek when I was directly asked ‘what I believe in’.

How interesting, but it doesn’t stop there. The attempt to saddle me with an accusation of  hypocrisy or self-contradiction, was actually prompted by somebody else visiting my correspondent’s channel, someone who may have had a better cause (although even then it’s still way of beam) as this visitor to my correspondent’s channel, was probably not privy to the original question I had been asked, but this person ventured for the following:

[NB: Keep it in mind that this person was probably unaware that
I had been asked ‘what I believe in’ by the owner of the channel]

[Regarding my original comment]:
“I wonder if he truly believes that?
It’s funny when you only read his first and last words though:
“I believe in………………As if believing something made it true.”

Hello! Hello! I’m having a little de-ja-vu here. Haven’t I read those words somewhere else before today? How much more bizarre can this get? Even thought my aspirational statement of belief in “attempting to understand the truth” DOES NOT contradict the caveat ‘believing something does not make it true’. i.e. I believe that BECAUSE IT IS TRUE, It is not true BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT. THE FACT THAT IT IS TRUE INDEED, DOES NOT PREVENT ME FROM, BUT REQUIRE ME TO BELIEVE IT. And even though I could by all rights state this belief without provocation excuse or justification and least of all without it being a contradiction, here I am being handed on a platter, the most unassailable and completely ideal guild edged invitation, to profess my belief. But on top of this the person making this accusation knows full well why I have tendered my belief as they themselves are the one who asked me to state it, i.e. ‘what do you believe in?’ In all fairness, the statement ‘I believe in attempting to understand the truth’ is not actually a BELIEF as the preface ‘I believe’ is simply a commonly used rhetorical tool for expressing an aspiration. Therefore there is no FACT in the statement that could even be tested for TRUTH value, and so no contradiction of any fact is possible.

As if there were not enough boxcars on the ‘stupid train’ already, the godbotherer in question, takes the cue of this ignorant bystander, who is probably unaware that I was actually solicited to give my belief, and yet knowing all this still proceeds to upbraid me with the accusation that I was contradicting myself and consequently implies I am a hypocrite. My god-bothering correspondent should have pulled the ignorant bystander with the ‘bright idea’ into line and pointed out that I was invited to express my belief. But NO!… instead my god-bothering friend decides to send me a PM pointing out “the connection and contradiction between your [my] first and last sentence” while demonstrating the breathtaking level of ignorance and stupidity some people are capable of in their desperate fight find any pathetic morsel of justification for contrived strawman criticisms. Fuck knows why, because the criticism was only sent by private message. So It’s not even as if this moron even had a publicity point to score. The whole ordeal is just bat-shit crazy from top to bottom.

So it should come as no surprise that my first line is about what I do indeed believe. But having the quality a euphemistic ideology, the belief I stated “I believe in attempting to understand the truth” was not in the same category of ‘beliefs’ which one could contradict themselves with, by claiming it was factually true, because they believed it. Not that anything I had stated about any belief conferred anything but the opposite of that meaning anyhow, i.e. ‘that no fact is true because I or anybody else believes it’. But as I have explained, the belief I conveyed, was not even a matter of fact, but even if it was, It wouldn’t matter, because, even if I did believe it, that would only be because of its factuality, rather than its factuality being because I believe it. So, one more time for the half brain-dead, the declaration “I believe in attempting to understand the truth” DOES NOT even remotely contradict the caveat ‘believing something does not make it true’ and you would have to be a FUCKING MORON to think it does.

But here’s the acid test. If my correspondent or their acquaintance, wishes to take up the issue and clarify how this could be a contradiction, I expect them to FIRST, put their own cards on the table and stipulate which half /(halves) of the contradiction it is they disagree with? So to my correspondent (and their acquaintance), don’t just accuse somebody of contradiction; own the responsibility for clearly identifying your own sympathies with the remarks being made and advocate a clear position of your own for which YOU may be held accountable. To that end: Do you believe in attempting to understand the truth? You can simply answer in the same vein as I expressed it. So in other words: Do you agree with me, that understanding the truth is important? YES or NO? On the other hand do you agree with my statement that, ‘believing something does not make it true’, YES or NO?

I would expect a reply giving not only your straight answers to these two direct questions, but a detailed explanation of how you arrive at each conclusion. By all means convince me that either or both statement is unworthy of my whole-hearted endorsement. You must surely disagree with at least ONE of these statements, otherwise you ALSO, are a hypocrite by your own logic. You can by now, see the paltry, insipid idiocy, that stands for logic here of course can’t you? I have said something (anything), that is critical in some way (anyway) of beliefs. So that means that beliefs are bad (kinda sorta and um… er… sumfing like dat.. der… ya know?), but hang on didn’t I start of by saying ‘I believe’ (Ummmm!… you said ‘believe’. I’m telling on you. wah, waaah… MOMMY! Mommy! that man said ‘believe’ and he doesn’t like beliefs waaah waaah). I don’t know how anybody with this level of stupidity, can actually go to the toilet by themselves let alone use a computer to communicate. Actually, the illiterate slop I received, is hardly worthy of dignifying, with the stately honor of being dubbed communication. So it could still be considered a moot point, if such a creature can manage to wipe it’s own backside.

The problem so common amongst creationists, is that they never hold themselves accountable for their own beliefs but they constantly attack those who do. They present a barrage of strawman, fabricated disputes, and revile, shirk and hinder any criticism of their own beliefs in any way possible. This is demonstrated in the dispute above, as nowhere was there any attempt to voluntarily forward any opinion, by the critic about the statements in question. Only to unleash an ill-conceived accusation that the two statements were contradictory. Never mind the creationist having the balls to express an opinion for what they themselves think about either statement, just foist an empty rhetorical hit and run, and ALWAYS maintain the pretense that if your opponent can be criticized about anything, it somehow validates your own worldview; the old ‘I’m right because your wrong’ charade.

My own self-imposed standard that beliefs must be the end result of valid reasoning, is an encumbrance that I embrace and admit, in the kit of intellectual honesty that can be used against my ideas. Far more often than not, the imposition is self-imposed and the sacrifice is some idea I might have liked to believe, (farewell biorhythms) but if it isn’t true, it isn’t true. Where is the discipline of self-criticism in these creationist cowards? They wish to clutch at pebbles of reason (as if they really understood it), if and only if those pebbles can be hurled as weapons against their adversaries. Learning to use and embracing reason as a tool of personal intellectual hygiene, wouldn’t ever occur to these vermin. They are in the business of confirmation bias and malicious destruction of the valid and carefully reasoned worldview of their opponent. You can plainly see who is and isn’t playing fair, by noticing who puts their cards on the table, who volunteers to bring in their own laundry, while on the other hand who is always attack attack attacking, without having the balls expose their own position nor provide justification for the same. lemee heeeeear ya say… HALEL.. um… No, make that… !PATHETIC!

2 Comments leave one →
  1. April 27, 2010 12:21 am

    nice blog images. just the footer might require some changes 😉
    maybe its a default css?
    okok i will stop to chat, just though i’ll let you know.

  2. May 16, 2010 4:59 pm

    i’m so glad that i found this website. that topic was so nice. thanks again i added the rss on this site.
    are you going to post similar news?

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